Wednesday, October 29, 2008

The Hill Cumorah

It is a good thing that Mormon apologists are able to create such scholarly works, otherwise the Church would look mighty foolish!

Take, for example, the Hill Cumorah in New York. Since the contrivance of Mormonism, it has been contended by Joseph Smith himself, his witnesses, and the following prophets that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the actual Hill Cumorah written about in the book of Mormon.

Lately, however, it appears that folks are worried, if real scientific scrutiny would be applied, the Hill wouldn't live up to it's claim.

So now, Mormons are saying that the Hill may be where JS found the golden tablets, but it isn't the same Hill where the great battles of the BoM took place.

How convenient!

The Hill Cumorah

This Mormon apologist writes:
"In summary, the archaeology of New York is persuasive evidence that Book of Mormon peoples did not live in that region. By implication, the Cumorah of the golden plates is not the Cumorah of the final battles."

In accord with these general observations about New York and Pennsylvania, we come to our principal object—the Hill Cumorah. Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. No artifacts, no walls, no trenches, no arrowheads. The area immediately surrounding the hill is similarly clean. Pre-Columbian people did not settle or build here. This is not the place of Mormon’s last stand. We must look elsewhere for that hill."

John E. Clark, "Archaeology and Cumorah Questions," JBMS (Provo, UT: FARMS, 2004), pg 151

But, historically, the following has been stated about the Hill Cumorah:

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

"I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.
The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.
The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study." (Letter from F. Michael Watson, Secretary to the First Presidency to Bishop Darrel L. Brooks, Moore Ward, OKC, October 16, 1990)

So, as status quo with Mormon apologists, "let's make up new rules to explain away the problem we have."

You can't have it both ways...

Why can't you guys just tell the truth?


  1. Please visit my blog to deal with your hate:

  2. Yes "Marcus" you are a hater, and not even a very good one. Using a fake name and photograph? Come on. Act like a man, and stop attacking the momron religion. God does not want you to be a weak little man attacking other religions over the internet, he has high hopes for you.

  3. Wes,

    You are welcome to comment, but please stick to the subject of the post. You are "off subject" on both of these comments.

    FYI, I use a pseudonym in the fashion of Samuel Clemons. I do this to protect myself from the likes of people who would abuse my actual identity, in the manner that you have done with Rick Beaudin.

    Again, you are welcome to comment on the subject at hand, but do not spout your hateful attitude on my website. Your sad attempt at sarcasm underlines your poor attitude.

  4. Yes, finally, a blog that bashes on Momronism, you have finally filled the much needed space on the internet!

  5. Wes,

    Please learn how to type, how to use a spell checker, or at least how to spell Mormon.

    Again, the sarcasm thing...not really workin' for ya.

  6. glad to have your posts over at mormon coffee; the current thread should be fun AND educational


  7. Howdy Marcus, Thanks for leaving the nice comment on my blog about Jesus. I have never had a problem with a big old battle being fought in Palmyra New York. I'm sure there were HUGE enormous battles fought all over the America's during and after the time of the Book of Mormon that we have no idea of. I was watching a documentary about a very large battle being fought in Africa around the 1880s between the Zulus and the British. Recently, dozens of Anthropologists went out with metal detectors and were only able to find a few dozen tiny pieces of metal (spent cartridges, nails etc) This was in a very open field, they knew exactly where the battle had taken place, and it was only 120 years old.

    Now, lets say I went to palmyra and found an arrowhead. I know as well as you do that all the Mormon-Haters would just say "One Arrowhead does not a battle make" you would scoff and laugh at me just like you have scoffed and laughed at everything Mormons have ever tried to use as an example to show the validity of the Book of Mormon.

  8. Wes,

    The difference is, the BoM talks of using swords. Undoubtedly, with all of the metallurgy and use of machinery, there would be MUCH more than just an arrowhead. Surely you agree?

    And, it is a moot point, as the LDS refuses to allow archeological digs. The Israeli government allows digs in the most sensitive, most holy places. Why won't the LDS church?

  9. I have been to Palmyra, I can't remember exactly the set up, but if I remmeber correctly the majority of the area around the Hill is not owned by the church and has houses on it. I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "refuses to allow digs" exactly where would you like them to dig? And where did you get your information that they "refuse" digging? Are you talking about the hill itself.

    Yes the BoM mentions swords. The Spaniards described "two handed swords" that the natives used when they first got here made of sticks with sharpened rock blades sticking out of them. That could be what they were. Have steel swords from 400 AD been found from European battles? What kind of shape were they in?

    The Hill is tiny, no one knows exactly where the battle took place. Was it right at the hill or two miles away, two miles would make a very big difference.

    I guarantee you there have been hundreds of battles fought all over the world that have been documented in ancient text but never verified through archeological digs. The only reason you like to bring this one up is because of its religious significance.

  10. I honestly don't know if European swords from 400 AD have been found, but I do know that Chinese "steel" artifacts from 200-300 have been found and they were in pretty good shape. I personally own bronze Chinese coins from 100 BC that are in impeccable shape. I also own some "widow's mites" as described in the Bible that show incredible detail.

    You say that no one knows exactly where the battle took place, yet your prophet and following prophets and presidents have taught that it took place at that Hill. Since they taught, speaking as prophets, you have to believe that what they say comes directly from God.

    If there are indeed houses built around the Hill, then that is rather damning evidence that no battle took place. For, in the digging of sewer lines, foundations, etc, there most assuredly would have been artifacts uncovered. It is said that in Italy, you can't plow a field without uncovering ancient artifacts.

    You say that the only reason I bring this battle up is because of its religious significance. You are 100% correct. This is the ONE historical place that has been continually verified by the LDS church since it was contrived. This is 100% accurate according to LDS teaching. This one should matter more to you than any of the other things in LDS history. For if this ONE thing can be proved, then it would create OVERWHELMING evidence for the credence of the LDS Church. However, since the LDS church will now allow its excavation, doesn't it make you think that they are trying to hide something? It sure looks that way to people on the outside looking in.

    Wes, this isn't a matter of my hating the Mormon church. It is a matter of integrity; a matter of historical and moral transparency.

  11. Marcus, from the look of Wessy's blog, I'm not even sure his comments are even worth replying to. I happen to be LDS and enjoy some good theological debate, but he is an embarrassment. It's guys like him that destroy a good debate between faiths. He seems to wet his whistle by throwing the hate word around so much. It's almost comical, if it weren't dealing with something important.

  12. Moroni,

    Thanks for taking the time to comment on my blog!

    I know. I almost didn't. Like you said, we are dealing with something important. However, he has greatly improved as of today and I have actually enjoyed the dialogue with him today.

  13. Germit,

    Sorry, I missed your comment. Thanks for dropping by and taking time to comment.

  14. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  15. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  16. Wes, your previous two comments have been deleted as you did not follow comment guidelines.

  17. Marcus, you seem to be most interested in swords when it comes to the battle. The first thing you need to do before you should start throwing stones at the Book of mormon is to do research on the condition of 1,600 year old swords found under ground. Have any been found from European battles? Would there be anything left? What condition would they be in?

    For thousands of years victorious armies around the world have gathered the weapons of their enemies after a battle. We can only assume that the Lamanites would gather up the weapons of the dead Nephites. We should assume this becasue a) The Nephite weapons were more advanced than that of the Lamanites, and b) Mormon specificaly mentions that the Lamanites were at war with each other, so they would want all the weapons and armor they could gather.

    Like I mentioned before, there have been huge battles fought all over the earth that have not left a trace. Like the one fought in Africa only 120 years ago. What if I went to Africa and looked for evidence but didn't find any. You would be saying "What, you didn't find one rifle, you didn't find one pistol! All you found were a few spent cartridges, that battle must never have taken place!"

  18. My "obsession" with swords is not nearly as big as you make it out to be. Why are you bringing this up again. You and I have already discussed it. Click here for my previous answer: or scroll back up to October 30, 2008 1:24 PM.

    Have you ever been to Africa? I have. Anything left out for more than three minutes is considered "abandoned" and because of the poverty, EVERYTHING is scavenged. If there were any guns (especially), knives, canteens, hats, boots, spent cartridges, even spent bullets for that matter, left on the battlefield, they would be picked clean in a matter of days, if not hours.

    Oh, wait a minute, that is the same reason you said there weren't any swords found. Hmmm.


You are welcome to comment. Please keep to the subject of the post. Please do not cut and paste long items from other websites. Please do not use profanity.

Due to recent verbal attacks, comment moderation has been implemented to enforce the above guidelines. It is sad that the irresponsibility of the few adversely effects the many.

All comments are subject to deletion at the discretion of Marcus.